Supernatural

[certainthings]

Abandon All Hope.

It's a little like beating a dead horse. But yeah, I wanna talk about why that thing happened or more how it came to be why that thing happened. Mmhmm. Okay, really? I want you to tell me the how and why because I'm still really confused by it.

Join me on a new voyage of the mind. A little tale I like to call: Sam and Dean, Hunters of the Demons

Like I said in my review of the ep after it happened I was surprised that I got a wee bit weepy when Ellen and Jo died but deep down I don't really care that they died because well, I wasn't their biggest fan. But I still don't understand *why* they had to die. I mean, there's the 'This is serious. We're not fooling around. People are gonna dieeeeeeee during this APOCALYPSE, boy, howdy and don't you forget it!' thing of it all. But just. What?

Did Sam and Dean or Bobby and Castiel or any combination of them know who Crowley was before Becky mentioned him? Because it seemed to go a little like this ...

Becky: Bela's a liar! Crowley has the colt.
Sam: o.O

Dean: You wanna blow this popsicle stand and fuck this convention outta each other?
Sam: But first let me tell you where the colt is.

Castiel: Dude. He's making out with a guy. WTF is this?
Dean: Are you taping it?

Jo: I'm playing the role of the damsel.
Demon: Oh, let me be scary then.

Ellen: I'm tough but can't drink an angel under the table.

Sam and Dean: We're trying to trick you.
Crowley: Blow me. And after I'll wrap up the colt for you.

Yadda yadda ... Ellen and Jo are blowed up into bits.

And it just seems to be that if they'd done any research or tailed Crowley for a little longer it would've been more...

Becky: Bela's a liar! Crowley has the colt.
Sam: o.O

Dean: You wanna blow this popsicle stand and fuck this convention outta each other?
Sam: But first let me tell you where the colt is.

Sam and Dean: Uh, hi. We're here for the colt and possibly a tour of this lovely house you're currently residing in.
Crowley: It is rather lovely, isn't it? Come in and we'll have some tea and a chat before I hand over the colt.

Just. Seriously. Please tell me how and why exactly Ellen and Jo were there. I don't understand it. I mean other than for the above reason of "we're going to kill off people that are close to Sam and Dean. Suck it." which is stupid. I mean the word "apocaplyse" pretty much covers "bad shits a-happenin'

I know I'm being repetetive, I do.

Did they think about killing off Cassie or Lisa before they decided on Ellen and Jo?

"We'll bring Cassie back with Dean's love child! And have them ripped apart by a hell hound!"
"Sounds fantastic but how does that effect Sam?"
"Who? ... Oh, right. That other guy. Hmm. Okay. What about Lisa and Ben? That'll show Dean that this is Serious."
"Yeah, again. How does Sam fit into this because this has to hurt him too."
"Dammit!"

and on a little more until they remembered Ellen and Jo.

We're Ellen and Jo nearby? Did they have to drive a long way to die? Did Bobby phone and tell them what the what was or was it Dean or Sam? Did it take awhile to convince them or were they gung-ho 'chaaaaaaaarge' from the get-go?

But seriously. Please explain it to me.

Comments

[popmusicjunkie.livejournal.com]

To me it still feels like an entire episode was missing going into this one.
There really should have been more set up.

Remember the early days of the show when Sam and Dean would drive around in the Impala and over explain the plot points? A few minutes of that early in the episode really wouldn't have hurt either.

So yeah, I'm pretty much feeling like you are about the whole thing.

[alwaysenduphere.livejournal.com]

This.

This whole episode felt like there was just something missing that we were just supposed to assume, like an episode the writers had made in their heads but forgot to get it aired or something.

Granted, I kinda hated Sam's geeky exposition explanations about the MotW sometimes, but a happy medium would've been nice.

[halfshellvenus.livejournal.com]

I mean, there's the 'This is serious. We're not fooling around. People are gonna dieeeeeeee during this APOCALYPSE, boy, howdy and don't you forget it!' thing of it all. But just. What?

I hear you.

Part of me (an evil, bad, bad part of me) thinks that the reason for it was that TPTB were tired of hearing about how the fans want some of these older characters back, and decided to resurrect Ellen and Jo just long enough to throw them under the bus. :(

The scenes between Ellen and Jo at the end were wonderful, just heartbreaking and real, but how we got to that point seemed so ridiculously contrived toward gleefully killing the characters off.

Yeah, I don't get it either. :(

[muses-circle.livejournal.com]

We're Ellen and Jo nearby? Did they have to drive a long way to die? Did Bobby phone and tell them what the what was or was it Dean or Sam? Did it take awhile to convince them or were they gung-ho 'chaaaaaaaarge' from the get-go?

Don't forget there's also Ellen calling Castiel "Cass", which to me suggests she knew him well enough to use the nickname. Which again begs the question, "And this happened . . . when, now?"

They should've trashed the "SamnDean go to a convention" episode for one that gave the background and set-up for Ellen and Jo to get involved with episode 10. I think had there been any REAL REASON for their presence in the episode, their deaths might have made sense and I could have maybe sorta accepted it.

As it stands, Ellen and Jo were the Red Shirts of the episode...only we knew them beforehand. Sloppy writing, writers. Sloppy.

[snuffkin.livejournal.com]

They should've trashed the "SamnDean go to a convention" episode for one that gave the background and set-up for Ellen and Jo to get involved with episode 10.

That!

[giantlovetingle.livejournal.com]

I get that they wanted to kill people off to show how ~*~serious~*~ this apocalypse is; I agree with you, did it have to be hunters? How many hunters are even left now? Besides Bobby, Dean and Sam?

[gwendolynmstacy.livejournal.com]

Oh good, I thought it was just me.

Seriously, like I mentioned I would have much preferred to have a set up episode in place of the whole convention ting. I mean c'mon not to be dissing anyone but arc wise that was about the lamest thing ever and I get we have to use our imaginations with some of this show but c'mon blind faith acceptance of Jo and Ellen knowing Castiel is a long shot esp. if it's not set up in canon. It looks sloppy and rushed and it just sucks. I'm still so mad about the convention episode being the lead in for episode 10. I needed set up for episode 10. Instead it felt like I was starting from the middle and missed some very important details. That's bothersome, it could just be me but really that's the only thing standing out like a thumbtack about all of this.

Like someone else said, if there had been a set up I could have maybe accepted it better, but blah. Just blah and really at this stage when all this big war who-ha is going on I think there are only about 5 to 7 hunters left (inc Sam, Dean, Rufus, and Bobby) and by them odds? They're all FUBAR. I just yeah...NEEDS MOAR HUNTERS LESS RETCON.

Maybe it's me though, I could be wrong, who knows *shrugs*

[cityphonelines.livejournal.com]

I think if it had been a two part ep (or if we hadn't been coming from the previous two lighter eps) the context would have transitioned smoother. I think they simply underestimate our desire for MORE STORY at times.

As for why Ellen and Jo? I think it boils down to them knowing how to hit us. Kill anyone else I wouldn't have cried buckets like I did for the Harvelles, especially given the parallel between Jo's death and her father's. Even if they would have offed Bobby, they would have had to REALLY work it, push it, sell it to get that kind of emotional reaction (from me, natch, I can't speak for anyone else).

And in the end, I think that's what they wanted, something visceral and unwanted right when they sign off for 2 months to keep us invested emotionally.

As far as the Crowley thing the ONLY reason that worked for me is because Mark Sheppard ROCKED it, like he rocks everything he touches.

[littlepunkryo.livejournal.com]

Maybe they did it because Elle and Jo are really the only characters besides Bobby that were both introduced in past seasons and the audience feels a connection to? Everyone else has been introduced as part of this "apocalypse" myth arc and are probably too important to the future story to kill off.

I do think that part of the problem with their sudden appearance and death has to do with the - in my opinion - crappy job they're doing at focusing on what really matters this season. We've gotten so much filler lately - the "trickster" episode and the fan convention episode, for instance. Everything we learned - plus some - could have been packed into a single episode. I've been pretty disappointed this season, actually, because for me the focus isn't where it needs to be, and that's on, you know, the apocalypse.

Not every episode can be heavy, I know, but it seems like we're spending too much time screwing around lately.

[moonie]

Two random thoughts:

* The episode needed more Crowley.

* I am so very bitter that the writers fucked up Jo's first appearance and ruined her character forever. (Sure, let's have Dean hit on her, then belt out a love song! The viewers will LOVE her. ...um, no.) Because I actually LIKED her later on, when she started hunting, and I would've liked her even more if only they would've also canned the Dean/Jo flirtation. IT'S CALLED SUBTEXT, USE IT AND LET THE FANS TAKE CARE OF THE REST.

As for your question, my theories:

* The writers like to take the easy way out. "Oh man, I'm bored with the psychic kids, lets scrap that shit and do something else." It's like the show is run by children, sometimes I think they don't even know what they're doing.

* Writers in general are attention whores, they want to affect the viewers, and what better way than to kill off characters? I call it The Whedon Syndrome. Joss killed off Buffy's mom and it was SO. GOOD., and since then he's kept killing off characters, trying for another The Body and missing by a mile, to the point where I'm just annoyed by the wasting of perfectly good characters. The SPN writer's room seems to be particularly cursed with this Syndrome.

* They're trying to drive the point home that Sam & Dean are all alone in this. It really is down to them. I'm betting Bobby and Castiel will bite the dust at some point this season too. Of course they're ruining a perfectly good universe with many interesting characters (from a fannish standpoint) in the process, but who cares! Why be subtle if you can be dropping anvils?!

Hm. Re-reading that, I guess I'm kind of bitter? *facedesk* I just, man, I keep thinking about this show and about how much better it could be and WOULD be if it were run by different people. :(

[bouncywild.livejournal.com]

I think they should kill Bobby. And then Dean. The show doesn't even give a shit about being the show anymore, so why should I care what happens to the best characters. I fucking loved Ellen and Jo hardcore. That whole unrequited "he sees you more like a little sister" love stuff between Jo and Dean was epic, it was okay as it was but, like the these past 2 seasons are so fond of doing, they fuck everything up for no real reason other than they can.

That being said, I'm really surprised their haven't brought Cassie back, then the show can kill her off because it'd be racist if they didn't. Or whatever the hell Route 666 was about.

[deadflowerss.livejournal.com]

What you said and everyone else has said.
Also,there hasn't been one decent slashy moment forever,and no rocking music,or naked stuff.
Really,I can't watch SPN for the plot,so if there not giving me any *porn I'm just going to fall asleep.

*sleezy bank homophobic banker does not count.

[certainthings.livejournal.com]

Maybe the last two eps or so they'll bring back the show that we ALL used to enjoy.

[agt-league.livejournal.com]

Yes, I totally agree. Someone needs to answer these questions for us.

[certainthings.livejournal.com]

Wouldn't that be fantastic.

[blacklid.livejournal.com]

Here. Read this: http://community.livejournal.com/spn_heavymeta/296023.html
It's short, I swear.

[certainthings.livejournal.com]

While I enjoyed that and I agreed with it it still doesn't answer my questions. :/

[blacklid.livejournal.com]

Can you help me understand what's missing? I can pretend I'm helping.
LOL

[certainthings.livejournal.com]

I just don't understand why they were there in the first place or how it came to be that they were there. I want that back story. I'm okay with their deaths, I'm really behind Ellen staying with Jo and going out with a literal bang with her daughter and I understand that this apocalypse is serious business - just. Why? How? If they were there at the final battle (God, I hope there's a final battle) and they died there, that'd make sense but now? I just don't get it.

[blacklid.livejournal.com]

Waaaaale, lessee.

They found out that the kickass, Boss Crossroads Demon (ala higher than Azazel and working in tandem with Lilith) is the one who has the Colt... and his house is surrounded by personal security... and Bobby is out of commission. Ellen and Jo were steady fighters and hunting together again when they saw them a few weeks before in Colorado, and they were their backup when they accidentallied The Hell's Gate the year before and had been loyal friends ever since, and Rufus is on the outs with Bobby again, so... who ELSE do you call in for backup?

To me, part of the tragedy was that they thought they were dying on the day that Lucifer would finally get his... so how was it NOT The Final Battle as far as they were all concerned? Yeah, the boys were taking a lot of details for granted in order to think that the Colt might work, but apparently even Crowley thought it had a chance. Also, Dean was STILL chasing the gun five years later in 5.04 and it never tells us who had it by then... so *shrug*. I STILL think there's an element to the Colt that has yet to be revealed.

Does this help at all?